Ladies' Room Post

[threadwalker]

Usually I lock these to the women only, but this one is not locked and the men can chime in.

I'm very interested in what people think, especially those who feel the side-effects of age creeping in.


Over a series of weird conversations in the last few weeks, the topic of cosmeitc enhancements came up.

Let me add that doing long days trapped on the manufacturing floor seem to trigger "conversation" and that I was working with women engineers. When working with men, the topics usually revolve around sports, cars, rock-bands from the 80s (in a "name that tune" sort of way), repressive mother-in-laws, the crazy things wives/kids/pets do and dream vacations.

So one of the recurring threads with women was physical degradation due to age and the cosmetic enhancements available for aging, skin care, sagging body parts (that were previously perky), etc.

Face lifts:

I was shocked at the woman who said she was planning a face lift in a few years. I thought she was in her early-mid 30s, but she's 42. And she is seriously thinking face lift. I look older than her. (gasp! oh no! Do I need a face lift, too?)

Turns out the Crazy Cat lady is really 70 and has had 2 face lifts and numerous laser surgery on her chest/neck/eyes. I guess it works because she looks like she's in her mid 50s. She let someone else (not me!!) touch the clips in her scalp from the face lifts.

ewwwww! I totally get bumps all over and do the "ick, bugs are crawling on me"-dance when I think of that. gross.

But there it is, she's taken off nearly 20 years. Her eyebrows are in a sort of "up" position which explains the enquiring expression she has all the time. I can't stop staring at her scalp wondering if I'll see the clips peaking out through her hair.

I understand wanting to look young (isn't that why I use facial serum w/ retinol in it every morning and then apply sunscreen before going out?). But right now I can't personally overcome my freak-out over scalp clips to even consider this option. Which is why I'm so stunned that someone who's only 3 years older than me is planning one around the time she's 45. I'm boggled. Maybe when I'm 55 this will seem less creepy. ... maybe... but don't count on it.

As for nose jobs, cheek bones, eyes, lips, etc, we didn't cover it in our conversatoins. But I don't really have an opinion either way. If you have a facial feature that makes you feel like a social reject, then I'm all in support of fixing it. People react to our faces and it strikes us at our core when we feel ugly or socially unacceptable due to a feature we have no control over. (I draw a distinction between aging and things like noses; aging happens to everyone whereas noses are equipment we're born with). That said, my mom was always talking about getting a nose job and I happen to love her just the way she is; I wouldn't love her more due to a new nose and told her that whenever she asked me.

Lipo-Suction

One of the women has had lipo-suction and swears by it. I'm a skeptic. Easy off - Easy on. What's the point of lipo-suction if you don't change your life style? I would think that it comes right back on if you don't make bigger changes like diet and exercise. To me, it sounds like a lot of discomfort with short-term pay back. I don't think it would be used for general health risks due to over-weight; I think stomach stapling is the preferred solution these days for that. So unless you're a bathing suit model (or Demi Moore) and millions of dollars are on the line, I really don't see the point.

Maybe someone else has insight.

Boob Jobs
... bigger, perkier, lifts, etc (not related to post cancer reconstruction)...

In theory, I don't see any problems with this. I do understand how sagging is something you have no control over and if you really really hate that part of your body, then they have the technology to do something. Since I spent high school and Jr College as an A-cup, I understand the social fall-out of being a flat-chested woman; it's no fun and you don't get treated the same. So this doesn't creep me out or make me uncomfortable when people get one. It's probably in part because I know enough breast cancer survivors who've had reconstructive surgery and who've talked openly about it, it doesn't seem freaky to me.

Personally, I don't think I'll be getting one. I just hate the idea of being cut open and patched back up. If there was some sort of Logan's Run option where you could go in and have things done without having to recover, that would be tempting... I'd get cheek bones while I was at it. But actual surgery? Nah. I'm just not unhappy enough with the fall-out of aging to warrant the discomfort or deal with my fears. Besides, according to my inner cynic, one in eight women gets breast cancer, so pay for it and get it twice when I can get it for free in my late 40s?

Cosmetic enhancements.. there are so many anti-aging technologies, beauty enhancing technologies, and "things" we can do to change our appearance. It reminds me of that book I read last year about "body projects". Trying to maintain youth would be considered a body project. The author drew a connection between our obsession with our appearances and, initially, the installation of mirrors in most homes in the late 1800s. That was just the pebble that became the snowball; media, movie stars, advertisers, etc, have contributed to that snowball. And yet, I look younger than my grandmother at this age. I am stronger and in better health than she was. I'm already "younger" biologically if not chronologically than women my age 100 years ago, so haven't I already achieved the "forever young" goal by living healthy and having sufficient nutrition? Clearly it's not enough accrording to what we see on TV. I find myself pondering our cultural obsession with being "forever young" and the extreme measures people can/will take to be attractive and to be young.

I don't have any strong opinions either way about most of the procedures out there. Self esteem is a real thing and if someone really needs to do something in order to be happy with themselves, then I will clap from the sidelines (and refuse to touch scalp clips because some sharing is too much sharing). But I am fascinated with the array of things available and the break-point at which people are willing to go in and "do" something. I'm always curious about someone's motivation/goal for doing it; youth might be linked to career success/longevity, holding onto arm-candy status, snagging a mate, feeling good about one's self, etc.

Comments

[kahnegabs.livejournal.com]

I've had back surgery, knee surgery and shoulder repair, and two other medically necessary surgeries that required total anesthetic. You couldn't get me on the table for any kind of NON-necessary surgery at all! Anesthetics do things to your brain! No. I would not do cosmetic surgery. I'd rather be able to think clearly than look younger.

[allison-is.livejournal.com]

I really like thinking about beauty and how women attempt to achieve what they think to be perfect beauty. In reality, women now aren't much different from women then. There have always been beauty treatments and always will be. Lotions, powders, etc. At first they were for the omfg wealthy, but then they trickled down into the masses. We've just been able to apply the technological advances, which were at first for the omfg wealthy, but are now becoming more accessible. Botox being done at a Salon and Spa. Urgh. Botox is where my freak out is at.

[lifeofglamour.livejournal.com]

This is an interesting topic for me. I can't remember if you were on my friendslist when I was getting my surgeries, but if you weren't, and didn't know, I've had two pretty major plastic surgeries for removing excess skin due to my weight loss. The first one was a belt lipectomy (body lift), about 11 hours under, and the second was to re-section the hips from the first, and an inner thigh lift (remove excess skin) while they were at it (about 6 hours under).
It took me a while to talk myself into it because while having 12+ inches of excess skin was unsightly and annoying, getting it removed wasn't a medical necessity. Vain? Maybe. Depends on your definition and I could go either way on that. Having gone back recently and looked at the before and after pictures that the surgeon took, I can say now that the before was MUCH WORSE than I thought it was at the time.

All that being said, though, I don't think I would go in for an "improvement". I don't consider what I had "improvements" in the sense that if you consider normal-fitting skin to be a baseline, I was simply returning my body to a baseline status after shedding ~200 pounds. However, something I noticed once I got to my goal weight is that the wrinkles on my face, particularly the ones that frame my mouth, are deeper than anybody else my age. The skin on my face stretched while the rest of me did too. And while sometimes I idly ponder getting a facelift, at this point I don't think that I ever would, because I earned those lines, every one. They are a map of my life and path, and to remove them seems a sign of disrespect for the passage and lessons learned.

I don't know if I'll still feel this way in 10 or 20 years, but it's how I've felt the last 5, once I realized why they were so deep. Sometimes they bother me and I know that I can look pretty "stern" when I'm not smiling because of them, but I think I'll keep them.

Interesting aside: The first person I ever knew who'd admitted to having plastic surgery (a tummy tuck) was a co-worker when I was working for your employer, in the RegAffairs department, in the late 90s.

[joycebre.livejournal.com]

I could never do Botox - ewwww. And I certainly wouldn't want to touch someone elses scalp clips. also eww. But as I look at my body and what aging is doing to it, I wish I could afford surgery. Because yes, I'd have a face lift and a neck lift at a minimum. Aging and gravity do mean things to you, and I'm always surprised (and not in a good way) when I look in the mirror.

[theiadora.livejournal.com]

At one point in my life I thought about liposuction. Then a freind had it done, and was in so much pain for so long, that talked me out of it. And you are right about easy off, easy on. That freind 3 years later is back to where they were before the lipo. What a waste of time and pain.

I think if due to my weight loss, there is too much skin flapping around (when I Reach my goal weight), I might consider it. But will make the commitment of not having that lift until the weight has stayed off for a year. But right now..as a short cut... Nope, no way, no how.

[cathyn.livejournal.com]

I'm fairly well against many of the elective procedures conducted by today's plastic surgeons. I guess I am lucky enough to think that beauty is mostly inside, and no surgeon can fix that. Also, I think boob-jobs are a crime. It's the very rare one that doesn't look fake, maybe one in twenty. OTOH, I also think that our culture's drastically flawed when women think they need boob-jobs to get ahead in their careers, and then it works. Unless one is a stripper, breast-size is no plus or minus to job performance, but men are disgusting ass-hats and still make work-place decisions based on the appearance of their female employees. Grrr. Sorry. /rant_OFF

I like everything natural about women, I like their hair, their smell, their wrinkles as they age. If I was attracted to teenagers, that's who I'd date. I think wrinkles are lovely, the crinkles at the corners of one's eyes reflecting all the laughs they've had, the lines in their cheeks from years of smiling. Nothing a plastic surgeon could do could be nearly as beautiful to me as those well-earned lines.

[kahnegabs.livejournal.com]

Bless your heart! I wonder where I could find a nice guy who liked my well-earned crinkles and laugh lines?

[beanolc.livejournal.com]

I feel like I've aged ten years in my face in just the last year, all because of weight loss. My plumpness kept my face unseasonably smooth and now that I'm where I should be, I see the creases* that weren't there this time last year. Would I change them? Hell no. It was a shock to see it happen so quickly, but damn, this is me and natural.

Reconstructive surgery, as most commenters before me have pointed out, is one thing. I hold no bias toward it. Elective, cosmetic surgery is something else all together. The first key to happiness at *any* age is loving that reflection in the mirror.



* Himself swears I don't have wrinkles. I have creases. I love this man!!! :)

[thread-walker.livejournal.com]

Your man has a great perspective!

There is a quote from Marilyn Monroe in one of my fitness books or articles. I'll mangle it here:

"You can't have a great body and a great face."

What she was supposedly referring to was that slim women have faces that aren't as soft or young looking as the faces of plump women. I find it interesting that your comments about weightloss make you feel like your face has aged. I've seen that comment in a few other journals and it echoes what Marilyn said.

I disagree with Marilyn (and everyone else) who says a lean face is "older" or not beautiful. In fact, as we age, my friends seem to keep getting more and more beautiful as their faces change.

[callistotoni.livejournal.com]

To tell the truth, if I had the money I'd get a face lift, and probably a neck lift as well. I'm about to turn 49, and now with 40 lbs gone I'm starting to look old in the face. It's frustrating to me that right now I've got a high body-to-face ration (i.e. my body, IMHO, looks really good but my face and neck are obviously old). :-/

[duchessletitia.livejournal.com]

I look in my mirror and see my Mother. i also see the results of 20 years of smoking. I see the jowls on either side of my mouth. So yes, if I had th money I would get a face lift.

[dame-cordelia.livejournal.com]

I've had a couple of surgeries for medically necessary things, and have little interest in more surgery. It would have to be for a really good cause.

In the last couple of years my skin has been getting more dry at a pretty good clip. I'd really like a magic potion for that because the lotions and creams I have don't seem to do that much. I am particularly unhappy with my wrinkly neck and flabby upper arms. The flabby arms (triceps, to be exact) will, I believe, improve as I continue working out. As I continue to lose weight I don't know how that will affect my skin tone.

The face wrinkles are deeper than they used to be, but they aren't bad enough to make me consider surgery - yet. But the idea of botox grosses me out.

[fighter-chick.livejournal.com]

It's quite possible that I face medically necessary surgery about every 5 years for the rest of my life. The idea of going under voluntarily for a matter of vanity doesn't really work for me at this time.

Then again, who knows what I think after 15 more years of gravity work on my breasts? I'm pretty vain. I spend $$$$ on face moisturizers and skin products.

So I guess we'll see.

[ladydisa.livejournal.com]

The only "cosmetic" surgery I would ever have wouldn't really be "cosmetic"... I would get my boobs reduced cause my back has issues because of them. But at the same time I don't know if I could suck it up enough to go through major surgery that wasn't prompted by a life-threatening issue.

[evilviscountess.livejournal.com]

No after market parts for this girl either.

[j-i-m-r.livejournal.com]

In our marriage vows we promised to get old and wrinkly together, so while I stave that off with daily crow repellant (keeps away the crows feet) I have no intention of going under the knife. Besides, my rack is bigger than my mom's and fills out sweaters just fine, so I'm happy :-)

[j-i-m-r.livejournal.com]

But you can't help but be beautiful ... always have been, always will be.

Wow, where do I start?!

[dakini-bones.livejournal.com]

No! Just kidding...mostly.
There are some cosmetic surgeries I would want, but I am pretty leary of anesthesia.
I was always against plastic Sx, but then I got Lasix, because my glasses would always fog up above the mask during surgery.
Even though it wasn't for cosmetic purposes, I discovered that a small fix done in an afternoon, changed totally how I related to the world.
After that I decided if I wanted plastic Sx, dammit I'd get it.
And maybe I will, if I ever get any extra money!

Society hates women. And old/ ugly women get the brunt of the hatred.
If you can spare yourself that, why wouldn't you?
Unless we overthrow the patriarchy very soon, this is pretty much how it is.

[helblonde.livejournal.com]

I had a coworker a number of years go come back into work before her facelift had finished healing and it was the grossest, creepiest, doing-the-bug-dance-shiveriest thing ever. Scabs don't belong on eyelids *shudder*. But, aside from that, if it made her happier, or at least a little more content, then I'm okay with it. I probably won't ever do it - I like the lines on my face. Youthfulness is not something I've ever striven for.

Boob jobs, though, I'm all behind boobs jobs. I like having big breasts. It's one of the things that makes it hard for me to commit to weight loss. Sure, being fat has sucked in other ways, but I dig having the D/DD-cups. Of course, my mother and both grandmothers had breast cancer, so it's 99.99% likely that some time around 50 I'll have cancer, too. I like to think of the reconstructive surgery as being the happy ending of a really suck time in my life.

Lasix sounded good to me for a while except for the thought that someone would be *touching* my eyes. I finally gave up that dream when I decided that the chance of worse vision was not worth it (and my sight keeps getting worse, so I'd be back to corrective lenses in a couple of years). I do wear contacts, though, so I can't say that I'm immune from the self-consciousness that I had while wearing glasses.

[sirst.livejournal.com]

Really I believe people should be able to do what they wish with their bodies. Your body, your right even if it seems silly or wrong to other people. I've certainly seem some stuff at work I consider damn tacky.

Where the motivation for change comes from, there's the rub. Our internal motivations interact with our social network. Anything you do to/with your body should have a strong internal motivation. There's a point where social pressure becomes "not OK". Ideally we treat people with respect and compassion whatever their decision.

[thread-walker.livejournal.com]

I did not know you during your surgery period.

I think it's a toss up between calling that cosmetic vs health related. Afterall, how your wear your skin affects your self-esteem and self-esteem is a very real health issue that drives our behaviour. In my opinion, it sounds like it was a real health need.

[lifeofglamour.livejournal.com]

Having looked at the before pictures now with the detachment of 4 years post-surgery, I would agree that it was a very real need, and anybody that saw them would never deny me the procedures. (plus it was discouraging to run with all that skin flopping around)

[scotica.livejournal.com]

I'm not a big fan of elective cosmetic surgery. But then, I'm not a big fan of tattoos or body piercing, either. However, for all of that kind of stuff, I take the attitude that it is their bodies and they can do what with them, regardless of what I think. I hope it does make them happy (or at least more content) and that they don't ever regret it.

For myself, I'm not interested and not tempted, for so many reasons. After seven general anesthesia surgeries in my life (including major abdominal surgery), I am so not interested in an optional surgery for cosmetic reasons -- I've come through all of my surgeries well, but why tempt fate? Also, given that among my surgical scars is a great wide scar from sternum to belly-button, I'm never going to wear a bikini again (even when I do lose the excess weight), and I've come to terms with it by realizing that the only people who see me naked love me no matter how I look. But even before all that, I felt that people look like people look, and there is beauty in aging. So, apart from medically necessary plastic surgery, such as surgery to correct injury or deformity or the like (and I'd include significant excess skin from major weight loss to be correcting an injury), I guess I just don't believe in it.

And, of course, I am one of those people who is too lazy to even bother with makeup and the like. If I don't think it is worth the time and effort to put on makeup to look better or younger, I'm just not likely to think it is worth the expense, time, effort, and pain to have cosmetic surgery!