Feedback welcome: on parenting

[threadwalker]

My current question:

I see a ton of teens getting out of high school with no idea what to do with their lives. They hate school, so they don't go to college. Or they go to Junior College and putter around there for 10 years or so. To me, they appear directionless and with no drive to do anything with their lives.

I want my kids to pick a career path or vocation, regardless whether it involved college (although I prefer them to go to college). I want them to grow up, move out, and be big people in the big-people world. How do I get my kids to choose a life path that doens't involve laying on my sofa watching TV or plugging into computer games and guzzling Purple Flrup(1)?

All thoughts and feedback welcome. Feel free to ramble. You don't need to be a parent to have an opinion or insights.

Later I'll post what I've already started doing. I suspect the soft-fuzzy folks who prefer to solve family conflict with cookies and hugs will think of my house as being run by the Boot-Camp Mom from Hell.

(1) Jimmy Neutron reference.

Comments

[duchessletitia.livejournal.com]

1. Make them take responsibility early. Kelvin was responsible for his own laundry in Middle School.
2. Make them pay rent. Even if it is a token rent it makes them think about what they will need to do when they move out
3. Remember that they will do what they want to do. It does not matter what example you set or how often you explain the facts of life. If they want to make all the mistakes in the world that is what they will do.

Lastly remember that kids mature at different rates. Some are ready to move out and be on their own when they get out of High School. Some need more time. Kelvin needed more time. He is 23 years old but developmentally he is just coming out of his teens. He is actually on his last chance.

If he does not do what he needs to do this time, I will move him out. That means I will pack up all his stuff and turn his bedroom into my craft room. All his stuff will go in the garage. This includes the computer and his clothes. He can sleep on a air mattress but he will have to fill it every night as I am not going to be tripping over it during the day. I suspect that he will move out fairly quickly.

on parenting

[cathyblancett.livejournal.com]

When I was at the gym today I overheard something that was very interesting. One parent was saying that they give their high schooler a daily wage.... if they go to school they get a certain daily wage, if their grades are A- or better they receive a bonus of 10% of their wages for that qtr of school. If it is a B- or better 5% if C- to C+ no bonus but if it is D+ or below then they reduce their daily wage -- but I didn't hear by how much.
I just thought it was interesting because it teaches the kids that to earn money they must go to school regularly and if they want a bonus it directly related to their work performance... hmmm much like our work. but for a D+ or below we would be fired.
Cathy

[joycebre.livejournal.com]

I'm pre-staging and hopefully setting A's expectations. I talk about college, what college he's going to, what he's going to do when he graduates, getting a part time job as soon as he's in high school, how important an education is. I try to incorporate his current interests into the career talk - Magic cards are drawn and created by graphic designers, fiction writers create the stories and plotlines for the games, etc. I think it's harder now that things are so much more expensive - car, insurance, apts - it makes it hard to move out without have several roommates, an entry level job won't pay the rent. I make sure he knows that I make the rules, and that if he doesn't like them he won't be able to live here. Once he graduates from high school, if he doesn't go away to college, he'll be expected to pay a token amount of rent. We (meaning him) will be looking for summer internships in either his senior year or college. I'm more interested in him getting that sort of job, where he sees the adult world, than in working a job like McDonalds or Coldstone Creamery.

[ermine-rat.livejournal.com]

My sister and I came out of the same environment, but she stayed home, made 5 half-hearted attempts at jr college and never became independent other than three weak jobs, and a stint off with a supporting boyfriend.

I did more of the constant employment thing...even with jobs that sucked. College didn't really help or hinder me, but I was persistent and finished to please my dad.

I think that making the house a less comfortable place is the key...make them plot and scheme and desire to leave! I know two of my cousins barely stayed home through high-school, they wanted to work in Hawaii... and away they went. I wish my folks had done that to my sister... but I wanted to leave for my own reasons of independence.

[ysabella-dolfin.livejournal.com]

The bottom line is, you have to get them to go to college or vocational FAR away. All my friends had older kids when I had Mike. Their kids are expected to get a bare minimum of a 3.0 so they can get into a decent college, then starting their Jr. year of high school, they pick a bunch of colleges, so check them out all summer, then send out all of the stuff senior year. They spend one summer loafing after they graduate and then WHAM, moved into a dorm. They learn to live independantly in those four years and trust me, they don't WANT to come back home.

[theiadora.livejournal.com]

What worked in my family (with a military Father).
From age 8-10? we had to do chores to get an allowance. No Chores finished, got us a spanking, and then had to do them anyway, but then NO allowance since they had to Remind us. Our own Laundry (with minor supervision), Sweeping, Vaccuming, Raking kind of things.
Starting with Junior High (7th grade) parents asked "So what do you want to do with your life? What Job are you going to do? They explained that while they were going to be willing to assist for a couple of years IF we Went to college, the piggy bank was going to be cut off after High School. So we needed to start looking into what interested us and see if there was ways to make money at it. And they were willing to get us into After school programs to get that focus assisted.
By 8th Grade, we were having to pay for most of our wardrobe and any "spiffies" we wanted out of our own allowance. Or Job income. (I worked summers at various locations/professions since I was 16.)
By 9th Grade, we had an idea of what we were thinking of doing for income. We had to pay for all of our wardrobe, IF the shopping spree wasn't Mom's idea and she didn't get approval on ALL of it. Encouraged to get Better jobs over the summers or on Weekends (if grades were good), to assist in the focus of what we wanted to do in life. We were reminded that there was always the Military to fall back on if we chose that route. But were reminded that being an Officer (like my dad) was going to be easier on us then being enlisted. Which meant College & Focus.
10th-12th Kind of stayed the same type of guideance, but with more Chores & Errands for parents that we were responsible for. With more lectures about the opprotunities of Military Service if we couldn't focus on a Civilian job.
College: They paid for the Classes, Books, Rent, and $50 toward food. Anything else (gas, more food, entertainment, phone, power). On our own.
Had to get jobs versus taking a Student loan, as the Parents income made us ineligible (by something like $100.00) for Student loans of any kind.
My old sister grew up alot that first month, when they refused to send her any more money.... Mom did end up sending her a "birthday check" before the end of the month. Sis then complained when her birthday rolled around and she didn't get anything more.... :p
I made sure had money in my checking account when I went off to college (a lot more then my parents thought I had), and searched for a job the day I moved into the town where I was going to school (and got one by the 3rd day @ the school, I then got a discount at the cafeteria for being "Staff"). I really think I was much better prepared then my sister.

Over the course of our Adult lives we've had the "safety net" of being able to move home if we lost our jobs, and couldn't afford rent. But then the Chores were back (in lieu of rent), rules to follow when living under their roof (In by 1:00 am whatever day of the week) and when we got a job again there was a token rent to encourage us to move out. They were happy to see us, the just didn't want us to Stay indefinately.

Encourage their interests, show them the path to make money from them. Give them responsiblities, and hold them accountable for their actions. You'll feel better, and they will be fine. When they fall down, help them up, but don't FIX it for them.

[hrj.livejournal.com]

We started talking a little about this, but I'll repeat some stuff for the rest of the class. I'm not a parent, so I can't speak to that end. And if you look at the results of my parents' parenting, it's obvious that the results can be strikingly diverse. But here are some ideas of what led me down the paths I walked.

The biggest thing was a matter of default expectations. Parental expectations can be daunting and intimidating, but on the plus side, they create our "expectation of normalcy". Is it normal to go to college, get an interesting and reliable job, and take responsibility for your own life? Or is it normal to not carry through on projects, hate what you have to do to pay the rent, drift from job to job without thought of a "career", and constantly find external excuses for not achieving your goals? It was expected that we would do well in school. That was "normal". It was expected that we would go to college. That was "normal". It wasn't that we got disciplined for deviating -- it was more of a bewildered "what can we do to bring the universe back into alignment?" reaction.

When we considered future careers, we were always encouraged to aim at the highest part of the target. When I was a kid and fell in love with the San Diego Zoo and decided I wanted to be a zookeeper, I got steered into transfering that ambition to exotic animal veterinarian. (Didn't take, but it shaped my college career.) I think that exposing kids to the realities of interesting and challenging jobs, and impressing on them what it takes to get those jobs, gives them a realistic sense of needing to work hard to achieve what they want. (And I think that exposing kids to people who love their jobs makes for good role-modeling, with the acknowledgement that sometimes you just have to do what you have to do.)

The other big thing that I think helped shape my path was a conservative and realistic approach to teaching money management. We got allowances that were at a comic books-and-ice cream level, with opportunities to take on special around-the-house projects to earn larger sums. There was some loose tieing-in to performance of expected family chores, but not exclusively. (In-joke: if you think KPIs are arcane and complex, you should have seen some of my parents' allowance-calculation schemes!) When my taste in clothes diverged significantly from my Mom's shopping habits (sometime in late jr. high) she started handing over the monthly amount she had budgeted for my clothes and let me do as I pleased (knowing that I wasn't about to violate any school dress codes). And since I wasn't a fashionista and I liked to sew, I managed to bank a fair amount of it for other projects. But if I'd wanted a fancy stereo system, or my own tv, or a car, I would have had to get an outside job. In sum: we got handed enough money "for free" that there was room for learning about budgeting and saving-up-for, but not enough that we felt much entitlement.

But how much of this is upbringing and how much of it comes from how my personality interacted with that upbringing? I know that I came out of college with such an ingrained assumption that I'd support myself as soon as humanly possible that, when the science-oriented jobs didn't turn up immediately, I took a stint flipping burgers at Dairy Queen followed by half a year doing construction work at a mobile home factory before eventually working my way into the medical industry. When I ran out of teaching eligibility in grad school and hadn't yet landed a career track job, I put in a job application at the local Borders Books and was on the verge of putting one in at Starbucks when something else came through. Supporting myself was the first priority; pride comes second. Where does that come from? I dunno.

But this has babbled on long enough.

[hrj.livejournal.com]

Oh, I should probably mention that along with the default expectation that of course we'd go to college was the default assumption that we would be supported through college. And the carry-through. We all had college jobs too, but not at the level where our rent and groceries depended on it.

[shutt3rg33k.livejournal.com]

I think you are probably already setting the groundwork for this. Clear boundaries and communication. If they know what the limits are, know to respect them or else, they will know they don't have the fail and stay at home option.

[fighter-chick.livejournal.com]

While I wouldn't advocate all my parents' methods, they certainly did instill in both myself and my sister a cast iron sense of financial responsibility and independence. My sister would rather, and *has*, starved for a few months rather than ask my parents for so much as a $100 loan. So have I, come to think of it.

Like many of those who've posted above, I was given a nominal allowance that was tied to doing chores from the very earliest age. By the time I was 9 or 10, I was allowed to do heavier irregular chores for more money. (I clean a mean wall.) At about 6th grade, I decided that I both hated the garage-sale clothes my mother bought for me, and that I hated the way my mom did laundry. So I got a clothing allowance and a lesson on how to run the washer and dryer.

Doing volunteer work out in the world was *not* optional in my family. From the time I was 13, I volunteered with the local community center. Mostly as a gymnastics instructor--the center broke a number of rules and started giving me my own classes when I was 14 because I was responsible and competent. I switched to paid employee status on my 16th birthday. From there, I went on to take on more hours, more jobs. This was encouraged, though I did repeatedly and decidedly thwart my mother's attempts to get me into an office as a secretary. But the important thing was that from junior high on, I worked. Outside my house. It was normal and expected that I do so.

Something my parents overdid, but that has its place, was make being an independent adult a very attractive goal. Being a child in my home growing up seemed almost like punishment at times. No freedom, few and limited decision-making privileges, no say in the house rules. Many many times I heard "when you're grown up/have your own house, you can do X however you want." Words I took to heart. By the time I was 14, I knew that all I wanted out of life was enough steady income to live *anywhere* else. I think if you leave out the "childhood as punishment" part, this is a good thing to do. Adulthood should be attractive, something to strive for that has tangible, real rewards when you attain it.

Another thing my parents could have done better, but had its place, was the way they encouraged me wrt college. From the time I was 4, it was explained to me that I *would* be attending a 4-year university. Well and good. As a teenager, I learned that my parents would be willing to pay for 4 years of university, provided I agreed *not* to live at home. As described above, this was just peachy-keen with me. Even as a teenager, I recognized the value of a paid-for education and I wanted it. When I got into the Muckin' Expensive Private School, my parents told me that I'd need to buy my own books and incidentals. That was fine. They were happy enough when I declared my major in English, even though that is not a direct route to a career. I did internships each summer, and worked steadily through my last three years of college--I found that working improved my grades. Also, I was able to save up enough money between during-school and summer vacations to travel all over Europe when I did the Study Abroad program. While my parents totally supported my desire to go abroad, I had to pay for my own travel.

I'm a rebellious and independent person by nature--I'm sure that played a part. Buy my sister is less rebellious, and she turned out independent too. She is currently making a ***good-for-the-Bay Area*** living as a music teacher, living in a nice apartment in a good neighborhood sans roommates. Not the easiest thing to to.

Sorry for running on and on, but this stuff gets complicated fast. There's so much that goes into how people grow up one way or another. I think you're already on the right track with N and E. You don't have total control of what they'll do as they get older. (Heck, you don't have total control of what they'll do *now*.) And that's as it should be--they're individuals and they need to figure out how to live in the world. But you can definitely influence them, and you can certainly make your home more or less inviting for them to live in after they graduate. To make it easier for them, starting to prepare them for the notion of moving out even as early as now might be a kindness.

[beanolc.livejournal.com]

My brother and I are very close in age, raised identically, and as luck would have it, turned out very similarly.

Always had chores. Always. By 10 I was doing my own laundry, for example. We got an allowance for chores done, and yelled at or grounded for chores not done. Extra money was earned by doing extra chores.

We always had what we needed, but by the time we were 10 or 12, anything we simply wanted we had to save up for. Mom always had veto power.

I got my first non-babysitting job at 13 and have worked pretty much since then. My paycheck, my choice in how to spend it... but again, Mom ALWAYS had the veto power.

Regular bed time.

Phone: no more than 10 minutes per call, and at least 10 minutes between calls, EVEN with call waiting. And if anyone called us after 9:00 at night, we were the ones who got in trouble since our friends should know better.

Grounding was never a light threat.

College was always expected; I didn't even realize I had a choice. First year on campus, after that we could move off campus. Where we went was up to where we could get accepted. My major was my choice. When the free ride ended abruptly for both my brother and me (long story, not applicable here), we went on student loans and got campus jobs. We paid our own way and lied to mom about how much things really cost so she wouldn't send us money she couldn't afford.

Mom *always* explained why. Why can't I have that? Why can't we get that? Why can't we go to Hawaii like everyone else? She didn't do it to make us feel bad, but so we understood that it wasn't arbitrary. As a result, my brother and I both have a keen sense of money, budgets, and realism.

We were always encouraged to follow our interests, even when I wanted to learn the saxophone.

I got my first car when I was 20 or 21. It was never presumed that we'd have cars at 16.

Make up in junior high, hair dying in high school, pierced ears never an issue. Tattoos weren't in vogue then, but I knew they weren't allowed.

I couldn't wear anything that was all black until I was in high school.

I'm sure I could come up with more, but you've gotten a bunch of great answers from other commenters and I'd just be reiterating what they said.

[aastg.livejournal.com]

If you had asked me that question 20 years ago, I would have had all the answers, now, not so much. So I'll stick to what I know.

My Mom did two things in particular that probably saved me: she was constantly exposing us to new things, new sports, new arts - I didn't know it then, but she was trying to find out what we were good at. Despite lots of trouble at home and socially, she also managed to get it across to me that it didn't matter to her if I knew what I wanted to be when I grew up: she told to be find a field that fascinated me and just do that. She told me later that she figured that I'd be more likely to finish if I was interested, and that a degree would ensure that I'd get a job I could live on, whether I worked my field or not.

What others have said above is often true: if they're safe at home they won't go, unless there's something Out There they want to do badly enough to go. I don't know how you get there, though - in my own case the only way the yelling was going to stop was if I moved out, and sure enough - I did, and it did.

[klwilliams.livejournal.com]

Set expectations early. I always knew, from a young age, that I would go to college, and that as soon as I graduated I would be on my own. And, that happened. One drawback was that I really had no idea what to do with myself after college, or what sort of career would suit me, but I think that had more to do with me being an anti-social, terminally shy geek than anything my parents could have done.

[light-hands.livejournal.com]

I seriously cannot imagine your kids sitting on the sofa doing nothing for very long...

R's *job* is to go to school and do the best she can. I pay for A's and so does my mom. We have always talked to R about doing her best because that's the way you get to do what you want to later in life (job-wise). She puts enough pressure on herself that I don't have to with her grades in HS. My worry is that she's putting too much pressure on herself at times! My mom never had this problem when I was growing up...LOL.

R is very clear on the fact that she needs to support herself past college, and probably through college.

She is a very independent thinker and I believe I sold her on college very early on just be listing the advantages of a higher education. I also regularly encourage her to talk to people who are working in industries she's interested in. That's something that her dad's parents did not do with him, and while he did get a college degree, it ended up being the wrong one for what he wanted to do. SO, it's important to talk to people ahead of time and find out what paths there are to get to where you want to go.

I figure at this point I have 3.5 years to teach her everything she's going to need to survive on her own.......Um.......ACK!!!!! She definitely has some weak spots that we need to work on...Cooking would be one of those...that and money management. Even though she has to buy her own 'toys' and all, she really still doesn't know the value of money. She gets an allowance, but she forgets to log it on the card I have for her...so she doesn't get it, but apprently it's not important enough for her to track...Sigh. SO, still working on that one.

I think that kids whose parents went to college most often go to college themselves. The trick is getting them interested in something out there that they love and can study in school. R is very interested in costume design and sewing...She knows it doesn't pay much, and she knows that roommates are always an option. She may never live on her own, who knows, but she won't be living here rent free after college.

I think that kids who are not in college and are still living at home should pay rent to their parents.

I am very supportive of whatever R wants to do. Right now she's not so keen on the corporate scene, and I respect that. She may find that she needs the corporate kind of job and sewing becomes a hobby. She may decide to be a writer, she may decide to be a lawyer. We still have time.

It's very important to me that I support her, but not create a set of expectations that she feels she has to live up to that aren't right for her. Living up to other peoples expectations of what you *should* do and be sometimes can cloud what *you* want to do and be. As long as she can support herself (with or without roommates) and survive in the real world, and is happy, then I've done my job.

Once she's 18 she literally can do what she wants with her life and if she decides to not go to college? I will argue against it of course because I know that having a degree of any kind is very advantageous in todays world.

R is a wonderful kid. Smart, creative, talented...mouthy (she gets that from her grandmother...hahahahaha).

There are already too many moms out there that don't set good boundaries for their kids and let them walk all over them...I'm all for the Boot-Camp Mom!

What to avoid :-}

[colletteshorses.livejournal.com]

My parents never had the expectation that I would go to college. They really had no ideas or goals to help me. Mostly they just wanted me to deal with things myself and not bother them. Thus they never encouraged me to get a job in high school, and they never mentioned 4 year colleges to me. Instead of working for others, I ended up working around the farm for money. Later, when I went to look for work, I found that working for family didn't count as a reference or as experience, so it was extremely difficult to get a job. Every job expected me to have had lots of job experience outside my family by the time I left high school.

Then, when I graduated from high school, I couldn't get a job, and I had no clue about college. I found out that to get into college I was supposed to apply while I was still in high school. Instead of going to a 4 year college, I ended up going to a community college.

Without my parents support, I had no focus. (My parents paid for my schooling, and gave me money for doing chores and extra jobs around the house.) Their only support to help me chose a direction was when they would push career paths at me with extreme pressure once it was too late for me to move in that direction. (Like, 1 month into the semester, well you should have done this...)

Further, they discouraged me working while I was in school, be it high school or college.

Eventually, I learned that whatever my parents suggested was probably a bad idea that would further waste my life chasing my tail down fruitless paths to nowhere. At that point I returned to community college, ignored my parents, and rammed through toward a goal of a BSCS from a 4 year college.


What I wish my parents would have done differently that I think would have made a huge difference:

I wish my parents would have stood up for me in grade school through high school so I was not put into classes with the worst teachers and therefore held back from ever being allowed to take any class that was not remedial. (My teachers before 3rd grade taught me nothing and my parent's lack of attention meant I was held back from getting the opportunity to learn until after I graduated from high school. Even when I learned enough to jump up to regular classes, I was told that everyone wanted to be in better classes, and the administration couldn't be expected to move us around after they had decided what path each of us would take through school. I ended up graduating high school with an 8th grade level of English! [Pretty sad for someone who read everything that wasn't nailed down and wrote lots of stories and poetry.] One of my algebra teachers was so bad that after that class I couldn't do basic multiplication for years and gained a phobia for math! [This was a shame since the only career option that had ever occurred to me was to major in math. -- Not really a career option, but at the time I didn't know better.)

I wish my parents had instead encouraged me to hold a job outside of the house, starting once I turned 16, so I would gain references, and earn experience in both working outside the house, and in job hunting and interviewing skills.

I also wish they had planted the thought of college, no matter the career choice, and told me (or helped me) to pick a field, stick with it, and get the degree.

I also think going to see 4 year colleges, starting between 7th to 9th grade would have been good for me.


I don't know if this will help you, but if it does, at all, I will be glad, as I never want anyone to have to struggle for a basic education as much as I did. Especially when it is available and being withheld.

Re: What to avoid :-}

[thread-walker.livejournal.com]

Actually, this is very helpful.

You give me lots of food for thought.

I worked outside the house when I was 16. I did it against my mom's will and was able to get away with defying her because she was so distracted by my dad. But since you point it out, that experience really did help me later in life. I went to community college, too, and some of my classmates worked in the same restaurant I did. I saw them cut back on their classes to get more work hours and I realized that in the long run, they were setting a trap for themselves. If I hadn't been working since 16, I might have fallen into the same one and (like them) still be supervising the fry cook at BK.

Yup, this was a very helpful post. Thanks.

PS - welcome to LJ. I didn't realize you were on. I'll have to visit you.
:-D

Re: What to avoid :-}

[colletteshorses.livejournal.com]

The final straw, for me to go earn my BS degree was when I went to the mall to buy shoes and found an old friend managing the store. We had worked together in a restaurant for a short time.

The restaurant business really sucks! We were both framed and fired for being women, me about 20, her about 80, but the 55 year old owner's wife was still threatened by both of us! It's funny, but really sad. But, the money can be addicting until you see with your own eyes how dead end the jobs are!

Anyhow, this friend was almost 90 and still working for a living at a dead end job. She was so enthusiastic to have the job she had, too, because they had benefits, and the company wouldn't fire her when her health put her in the hospital for 6 months at a time!

As she told me about how good she had it, I became very nauseous because I could see myself in her shoes if I didn't do something about it. That was a horrifying thought! All questions about returning to school became resolutions to get that 4 year degree!


A much smoother path is to just convince kids that there is no choice; they are going to college. If you start young enough, and make college seem as fun as it can be, they will look forward to it and not think to question if they want to go. Just be there to support them in choosing a major that they will like that can help them get a job. They can always take that art history class later, once they can feed themselves; the community colleges offer some great and fun classes for furthering oneself after college. (As you know.)

The recommendation of making their next college semester allowance based on their grades is a good one, too. In fact, one thing my parents did that I actually agree with is that they would pay me for every good test grade I got, too. Depending on the school, the number of tests, and the frequency of tests, that could even replace an allowance.

Of course, the other option, when they get to that age, if they don't want to go to college, is to let them know that they can then stay at home, as long as they work, and then make them pay FULL rental prices for the room they will be using. Less than full price will have them living there forever. (I know a lot of people in this category, regretfully, who aren't charged full rent, so they don't do much with their life, and they often don't pay the rent they are asked to pay.)

I think the right opportunities, support, and "programming" from the start is really the way to go.


Glad I could help. Sometimes a bad example can be as useful for figuring out what not to do! :-)