Feedback welcome: on teens and parents

[threadwalker]

I stopped in Safeway this morning and at the check-out, my clerk, "Nancy", was chatty and described that she woke up at 2 am, realized her 18 yr old was not home yet, and laid awake until 3 am waiting for him.

I made some comment about there being no reason for someone to be out until 3 am unless it's their night "off" or they work swing shift.

Here's what I heard from her:
1. He's 18.
2. He's home schooled because he screwed up in HS.
3. It's totally "on him" regarding how well he does in his studies, what time he comes home, and how he lives his life.
4. Her perspective is that expecting him to be home early is her expectation and she can't expect him to live according to her expectations. Her expectations are her own issue and not her sons and he has to make his own choices.

Nancy's stance is opposite from mine. (I reposted mine below the cut.)

Also in the news today, the state of Massachuesetts is voting on a bill to outlaw spanking (corporal punishment) in the home. If that passes, you can't occasionally swat your kids rear in your home without risk of going to jail.

Okay - feedback welcome. Even if you think I'm too "corporal" or stringent in my approach. This would NOT be the first time someone has told me I'm too strict. Parents and non-parents welcome to comment.

And to my lurkers who e-mail responses to me at work instead of setting up an LJ and posting your response... I think you should just set up the LJ. That way I won't forget to respond to your comments and you won't have to nudge me. And I can keep your responses with the original post for later percolation. In fact, I might start pasting your responses in and just asign a handle to you. That way I keep it all in one spot.



Working backwards:

The anti-corporal punishment bill in MA is idiotic. Don't punish; do educate. Spend more money on preventing the creation of damaged children who will repeat the cycle of abuse and spend less money on punishing the punishers. Whatever. The whole thing is stupid in my eyes. It seems obvious to me that you shouldn't shake your kids, that you shouldn't beat them, that you shouldn't burn them, that you shouldn't lock them in closets, etc. But clearly my understanding is not common sense. When Florida's foster child program came under scrutiny several years ago, there were reports of abuse that resulted in death and others that resulted in permanent injury. I cried for days when I read the accounts and some of it is burned in my memory. I will not share any of that here.

If this is a severe issue, then they should require parenting classes. If it's an "adult" issue, then require the classes as part of delivering a baby in the hospital. (yes, the home delivery culture is left out, but Big Brother's reach is not 100% yet). In my experience, they require enough other stuff (shots, check ups, blood work, car seats to take the baby home), just make this part of Big Brother's program. If this is an issue with teen parents, then add a required parenting course in their high schools. Maybe we should have that anyway. It could be the missing link in our nuclear family culture.

As for Nancy, her approach goes entirely against how I was raised.

1. while living under my mom's roof, her rules were "The Rules".
2. Being out past midnight only happened when I was working late or on weekends and even so, my mom knew exactly where I was. Afterall, those Cthulu games could run late.
3. I was expected to take responsibility for my life and my mom didn't sit down and check my homework when I was in HS, but she was aware of what I was doing and it was clear that part of being a family (even as f-ed up as my family was) meant there were some communal expectations and there was Hell and Brimstone if you didn't.

What I felt like I was hearing from Nancy was some 12-step crap from a recovering co-dependent who has internalized the "I can only be responsible for myself" mantra and who, in the process, has removed the boundaries from her kid and is letting/forcing him to chart his own path in the greater world. (He gets to be "kid" here because even though he's 18, he's living under her roof and he's in HS.)

I hate that shit because what I hear is "I am not taking any responsibility for protecting my kids or putting safety nets out. It's totally up to them to figure out how to navigate the world." Taking that philosophy further, why don't I just leave a never ending supply of Oreos and fruit and veg out and advise my kids on which is better for them, but leave the choices up to them.

I'm very interested in what other have to say on any of this.

Comments

[rustmon.livejournal.com]

I thought as a parent, you were supposed to check up on your kids and know what their doing...All that crap about 'they make their own choices', to me says - you don't care.

My mom was just like yours. She gave me freedom, but also monitored what I was doing. She was very strict on me until I turned 18, and still monitored me pretty closely.

I don't know - maybe I'm too harsh - but I believe you should know what your kids are doing and can do that without being too overwhelming.

[erzimagdalena.livejournal.com]

I was raised the same way. My sister and I said my Mom was the 'meanest mother in three counties'. Of course in reality she was never mean at all. She raised us without a father figure much of the time and was very strict while we were young. Her theory was if we didn't have her rules figured out by the time we were in HS we never would, so by about our mid teens things relaxed a bit.
Looking back on it, we deserved spankings far more often than we received them, and what I took to be harsh oversight was a woman working hard to keep her daughters safe while teaching us about choices and consequences.

If the bill in MA passes I suspect in a few years all hell will break loose out there. Can you imagine a whole generation of kids who can legitimately threaten their parents with jail time if they are spanked?

[ermine-rat.livejournal.com]

This state mandated attitude is really worthless stuff. Someone does something very bad somewhere, so they make a law that creates even more problems. I wish our government didn't feel like they have to legislate every sector of our lives to create some kind of lollipop utopia where kids never need discipline...life isn't like that, and kids aren't like that.

I remember growing up with kids who were victims of many alternative lifestyles: odd religions, group marriages, vegetarians, no-TV, home-made clothes, cults, substance abuse, 7-marriages in 10 years, and endless types of other authority-defying twitches. The kids who didn't end up dead or in jail usually became just as messed up, or frighteningly conservative (doubtlessly a reaction to their parent's lifestyle)...much to the chagrin of their parents.

My parents were very conservative by comparison in those days, and I was so shy I didn't have my first date until I was 19. I look back on those days and I see what a totally open, permissive world without boundaries or discipline does to kids... they will find authority somewhere if you don't show it.

hmmm not quite a rant...

[light-hands.livejournal.com]

I agree with you...While I was living at home it didn't matter how old I was, the rules were the rules and you followed them! Once I was 18, I would be out past midnight with friends, but my mom ALWAYS knew where I was, and I always had to wake her when I got home so she didn't worry.

I had a very strict upbringing and I think both my brother and myself turned out pretty well.

R is a voracious reader...I monitor what she reads and occassionally I even pick up one of her books and read it myself to keep up with what she's taking in (Vampire novels are her current fav...You'd be surprised at how many HS vamp novels there are!). I monitor what she does on the web, what she watches on TV. Once she's older, these restrictions will relax, but I believe in very active participation in what my child does.

I remember when R was young and we were in line at a Toys R Us...the mother behind us let her son open a toy that they had not bought yet. That drives me NUTS. R ALWAYS had to wait until the car or until we got home to open anything. Sometimes the clerk would try and hand her the toy, and I would have to politely ask them to please put it in the bag.

R was not allowed to run around in a restaurant...no talking at movies either.

I sometimes think that parents get lazy when teaching manners. (not my friends in general. I'm talking about the population at large)

I am a self-confessed, very strict mom. Even my mom has commented on it...I think I have relaxed a little over time.

R and I do banter quite a bit, and she does give me more lip than I like at times, and I'm glad that she doesn't feel squashed when it comes to her opinions. She's also a pit bull when she wants something. Gah but that child can nag you to death. Of course, she never gets what she wants that way with me, but her father will occassionally give in. Sigh.

Spanking...I do NOT think it should be outlawed. I think that giving a child the power to put a parent in jail is not a good idea. For abuse, YES...for spanking? They'll live.

I have spanked R. I will say that it never worked with her, and if I had a do-over I would change it. IMHO it doesn't work. We work more on action/consequence now, and it works pretty well.

Oreos or Fruit and Veg??? OMG...Rachel would choose Oreos *almost* every time. 8-10 years ago she would choose Oreos EVERY time. But that's why *I'm* still here.

My 2 cents.

[ysabella-dolfin.livejournal.com]

well the age of the child is important. And their hobbies (as your cluthu experiences show). My oldest son is not a great student. But he is very involved in Drama. He's flown to Pensylvania to participate in a play. He is typically in 4-5 plays a year. He is the director of the improv program at his high school. Sometimes his plays go till late and then there are cast parties and the forays to Denny's for midnight sandwiches. I know exactlt where Michael is and I pick him up so I know he is where he says he is. But once he is 18, I doubt I will really moniter it like I do now.

[beanolc.livejournal.com]

I'm chuckling over the magic number of 18. In my house, age didn't matter. When I turned 18 my mom refused to sign the paper at school that would let me excuse my own absences. She said she wanted something over me! lol!

Until I was 17 I had a curfew of midnight weekends, and no going out on school nights. It was in my senior year that mom removed the curfew because I made the argument to her that while yes, these were the same rules my brother had at 17, I was nothing like my brother. Shouldn't the rules suit the individual? She agreed and we negotiated the house rules from that moment on, and they were the same for both of us 'til I finally moved out and in with Himself.
If midnight or later, call or prearrange.
Be considerate of those who have to get up earlier than you.
If using mom's car, have it home before she has to leave for work the next day (really only happened when I was in college and home visiting).

When dealing with an adult child, no matter how old that child is, consideration for all under that roof is the key.

[fighter-chick.livejournal.com]

It's funny...things did change for me when I graduated from HS. (That was a couple of months after my 18th birthday.) I went, it seemed by magic, from strict curfews to telling my mother that I was taking *her* car to my boyfriend's house to spend the night. Her response tended to be "I need the car back by 9am."

On the other hand, I had by that time proven myself to be a good kid. I didn't drink, I didn't do drugs, I didn't break laws/get arrested, I held down a job, and I'd gotten good enough grades to get into Stanford. I believe my parents were trying to prepare me for the soon-to-be case of college, when I would *not* be living under their roof and *would* have to make all my own choices.

I have some very definite issues with the way my parents raised me, and they did a few things badly enough wrong that they damaged me. But they weren't with the rules about letting them know where I was and having a curfew as a teenager. Nor the lessons in responsibility for myself and to the home in which I lived. Those things kept me safe and taught me how to be a self-sufficient adult.

Oh--and it wasn't the occasional spankings that damaged me either. I find those laws inane and ridiculous. The line between a disciplinary spanking and abuse seems pretty clear to me. Abuse should be illegal. Spankings should not. Duh. Could the government please get the *bleep* out of my house??

Nancy's attitude completely abdicates *her responsibility for the child she brought into the world.* I find that repulsive and pathetic, and all too common in the world today. (Not with most of my friends who are parents, happily.)

[dizzyblonde30.livejournal.com]

I think the law is ridiculous to say the least!

I'm not a parent (Yet) but I have worked in child care. I actually started babysitting at the tender age of 11! I think that is a reflection on how mature and responsible I was, being the caretaker I am lol. Anyway, what I've noticed over the years is that in general there seems to be a lack of parents setting boundaries for their children and instead of being a parent they allow their children to make the rules and dictate how things go.

Now I come from a rather sheltered background, bedtime was early and in high school 9pm even as a Senior! Although I think the folks relaxed it a bit then, I don't recall. Of course I was also a rather shy girl, I rarely went out and the only trouble I got into was detention for not bringing my gym clothes in on gym day. What a trouble maker LOL I had my moments of being a brat but I think over all I was a pleasure to my folks. Now my oldest brother was the one always pushing the boundaries and getting in trouble and my two younger brothers were reffered to as the destructo duo lol, my folks already had their hands full with the three of them. Even when we were naughty or whatnot we had the structure of our family and the rules my folks put into place. Sure we tested those but we didn't dictate what was what. A certain look or tone would often be enough to keep us in line. I was spanked ONCE, that is all it took.

I think in general today parents resort right to the spanking. I know it's easy for me to sit back and say , "well this is what you should do and spanking shouldn't be the first resort to discipline.", I don't have kids but even I see the value of setting limits and boundaries etc..
I also think there is a great lack of respect with kids these days, they just don't respect their elders , themselves or anyone really. It's sad and it is always so refreshing to witness what I consider 'good parenting' when all I see around me is chaos! I've seen people in public around here just start whopping on their whiney kids when they aren't listening to their parents. And way is it that noone takes into consideration that the whiney child is probably tired b/c it's after midnight and they are not in bed? Oh that one just drives me nuts, school aged kids out past midnight with their folks on a school night. Again, I know it's easy to point things out as I'm not a parent but it surely has made me and Scott think about and talk about how we want to parent when the time comes, just hope we can practice what we want to preach lol

[dame-cordelia.livejournal.com]

I am sorry for Nancy's 18-year-old kid. He needs a little discipline from the outside since he doesn't know how to discipline himself.

When I was growing up I was told that as long as I lived in my parents' house I would obey their house rules. That I'd have to wait to make up my own rules for living until I had my own house or apartment, just as they'd had to wait.